Making a bigger sound

[mirth]

I play a lot with a band that has a loud tenor player in. We trade back and forth a lot, etc...its a lot of fun. Something I notice listening back to recordings is just how thin i sound in comparison to him.

It's a big drop off in frequencies and just filling the air with sound. He really gets this huge sound.

So...what are some things I could do...to maybe fill the air some more. I think my sort of rhythms sounds are actually pretty ok, but the lead sounds just seem to be missing something.

Some ideas I've thought about...

1) using an octave pedal on every solo
2) stereo rig...or at least two amps
3) more distortion
4) more effects...like a thick distorted sound with vibe or chorus or flanges or something .
5) more delay? More reverb? Less?
6) is it an EQ thing?

I'm fairly alarmed about it at the moment, haha. Now when I record...I am almost always doing stuff with a stereo pan kind of thing...like I'll pan the lead guitar hard left and right then separate them by 7ms. And I love that sound, it really fills in some space.

Hmm...any ideas?

[Infinite Ego]

Guys that get that huge solo sound like Lane et al do use at least a stereo setup. Lane used 4 amps with each one having its own delay time.

So, at least, two amps separated left and right

Also, a big sound and a big room for example you do need a lot more headroom for a more powerful sound. It seems counterintuitive because you can get distortion earlier on a small amp but you want more power rather than more distortion per se.

If you do use more distortion try something like a grindy boost in front of the amp rather than the conventional 808 type thing. Look at the Bogner Harlow which is a boost and sweet comp combined.

more power amp distortion over preamp or at least a good mix of both...drive the amp

larger and perhaps ported cabs

Humbuckers over single coils ... use the neck pickup more than the bridge

a chorus can help

less reverb and more of an echoplex style delay (***not as a note repeater*** as with other delays) but barely blended in as a 'wash' behind your guitar -- get a good one and you can also skip the chorus because you can dial in all the mod you want

I would avoid an octave pedal. every time I used one with a band it pissed off the bass player

[mirth]

I mostly play small venues...think the epitome of this kind of band is the kind of venues Holdsworth and Lane played, haha. So, I can never even get close to real power amp drive even in a 50 watt amp.

Yeah, I think you're right about the stereo thing. I just read something where I guess EJ uses a chorus pedal with rate at zero and depth at 100% between to amps and gets that "huge" sound. I think this is where the intellefex could be of real use.

I need to get my Legacy amp working..it currently makes no sound, and it's not the tubes. I need to go all electrical engineer on it and see what blew or whatever. Anyways... what a pain to drag two heavy amps around, haha, especially to small venues.

I was using humbuckers the other day, it didn't seem to make too much of a difference from what I could tell, though it is thicker sounding. I also think volume might be an issue, in that he was just louder than I was.

I mentioned the distortion thing mostly because upon listening back to the recordings of the gig, when I had more distortion on, I liked my sound better. There was a solo I had the octave pedal on too (though subtly) and it sounded better to me too.

But yeah... probably at least two amps. (Good-bye Back).

[chrissh]

I agree about less (or different) distortion. Another opton is to stack dirt pedals, experimenting with sequence and different types, but keeping the gain relatively low and boosting more with levels till you find a sweet spot. So you're adding gain stages but not really adding more distortion. Some heavy pedals sound surprisingly good (or useful) for lower gain boost and overdrive.

You can also get one of those speaker/cab splitter cables if your amp has output options, and spread your sound that way. A single 12" speaker isn't likely to sound very big on its own, and adding distortion only narrows and sharpens the field.

[mirth]

I use 3 od/dis pedals in stacks, and two of those pedals have 2 switches, so it's almost 5 levels of gain.

There seems to be an interesting side effect, to my ears at least, that when you're soloing, the distortion actually seems to spread the sound some more (could be the compression) when compared to just a slightly overdriven "good" sound, where it sort of dies after the initial impact.

Other than Lane, who else do we know about in terms of big sounds?

Vai uses a stereo setup

What's Adrian Belew do?

Jeff Beck?

Holdsworth - I believe he used multiple amps? I've seen him a couple times, and there were a couple amps, but I think one might be clean, another dirty? But his sound was really huge, I thought.

Van Halen? Don't really know much about any tricks he had (aka, I know nothing).

EJ, Landau, Henderson, Gilmour, who else has massive sounds? Might be a worthwhile investigation to see what everyone does...maybe they're all the same...maybe they're all different.

[mirth]

Do you think it makes sense to use 2 completely different amps? Or use 2 of the same amp?

[chrissh]

Early Van Halen used a phaser set at a slow sweep, to add a sense of motion and space without the destabilized-fundamental effect of chorus. That's actually an under-used method these days. Brian May did too (he's another good example of a big sound with relatively lower gain). Billy Gibbons might make a good subject for this.

[mirth]

Did he put phaser on both amps, or just one?

[mirth]

I have an MX90, but I've never really been able to get a great sound out of it, that wasn't super phasy (which is a good sound, but not for what you're speaking about ). It seems to really change the character of the tone, but maybe VH used it as mixed in? Not direct?

[mirth]

Reading a little into the VH thing...it looks like he basically went Guitar to MXR Flanger, to Phase 90 to Echoplex to amps. For what it's worth. Maybe I should pull that pedal out again.

[Infinite Ego]

I would probably use two different amps not of the same model. or at least two different cabs

I don't think the issue is so much distortion levels but using all the volume you can and then add the distortion....distortion is good stuff, it's just more harmonics

but you want the biggest base sound you can get coming from as many directions as you can.....the more preamp and pedal distortion the smaller it might sound compared to just turning up a big amp that has a lot of low end and low mids

[mirth]

Another thought:

Do you think it's more of a practicality to basically just have one "lead" sound. That way you can just focus on making that sound good. Not trying to have like 10 good lead sounds, or whatever.

I am specifically talking about an original band too, not a cover band or whatever. I used to kind of harp on my heros a bit for always using the same sound, but now I think it might just be a matter of just trying to control one sound. And not being average at a bunch of sounds, but really hone into that one really good sound and keep improving it over time.

I think I might just try to do too many things. Even if I want less gain, i should probably just use my volume knob, but go for that one "Tim tone"....hmmm...If only i weren't so slow to learn, haha.

[Infinite Ego]

for sure, I think you need to get 'that sound' in your head and find it. moving targets are moving. cover band is one thing but having 'your sound' is the thing you need

[mirth]

It seems obvious now....hmm...it sure would make things simpler in my head.

[Infinite Ego]

Yeah, Tim's ten tones leads to a proletarian existence whereas Tim's Tone leads to guitar god status

If you can find a Bogner dealer nearby go check some of them out with a larger or ported cab. they'll blow your mind