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Post by chrissh on Jul 27, 2012 18:04:14 GMT -5
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Post by Infinite Ego on Jul 27, 2012 21:05:32 GMT -5
Nope. Different guitars. Just no way to make the comparison at all. Not even different necks on the same body would get it done.
Factors other than wood to consider, even if you compared two necks on the same body
fret material
fret conditions
fret shape
fretboard style
how was the truss rod installed
type of truss rod
type of glue
age of neck
flat sawn or quarter sawn
dimensions
weight
season of the year (moisture content) and the different rate of absorption and loss between two different pieces of wood
finish age and type
weight/mass of tuners
strings
nut material and condition
and so on
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Post by Infinite Ego on Jul 27, 2012 21:15:15 GMT -5
To me, a guitar or any stringed instrument, really, is a sui generis object: the whole is greater than and different than the sum of its parts. Take two identical guitars off an assembly line at Fender, etc., and they will not sound or feel the same. And you can cook up a guitar following a standard recipe and you just cannot know what that thing will sound like until you string it up and plug in.
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Post by chrissh on Jul 27, 2012 22:29:57 GMT -5
;D Yeah, well ... it was probably an unfortunate decision for him to use the word "definitive". It is not science. I agree, and have experienced, that no two "identical" guitars will sound alike, as per all the factors you listed. Still, one could conceivably listen to those audio clips and consider how the combinations of body/neck pairings may have contributed to the different sounds, since each of the instruments share so many other similarities, and then maybe regard one's own experience with different materials and consider how wood species play a role in different sounds. That's all this is.
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Post by Infinite Ego on Jul 28, 2012 9:58:13 GMT -5
Yeah, fair enough. I agree that wood is a major component but it's trying to filter out all the other factors that would send a person off the trail.
You know, maybe the guitar to test this on is the Birdfish. Same guitar/neck but different 'tone bars'
Maybe that would get a person closer to 'definitive'
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Post by chrissh on Jul 28, 2012 11:37:35 GMT -5
Yeah, good point. Probably the Birdfish would be the ultimate "objective" guitar.
I wonder too, working with the idea that different woods do provide a somewhat predictable range of qualities, how much our ears have been conditioned by decades of hearing recordings of a small range of woods. That is we've been conditioned by a fairly small palette, and people tend to gravitate toward the familiar. Nearly any modern guitar can sound reasonably okay, and nearly any wood can sound okay, given decent construction, a playable setup and a flexible mind. But our musical "home" might be more fixated on that small band in the possible spectrum. Even Teuffel used common tonewoods for his Birdfish bars, and he claims to aspire to classic sounds.
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Post by Infinite Ego on Jul 28, 2012 13:57:02 GMT -5
I don't know if it's 'familiarity' precisely or 'prestigious' -- the fame of the guitarist is transferred to the the tone and then that tone is sought in order to place one's self in closer proximity to prestige.
If EJ, e.g., switched over to some Ibanez guitar, let's say, and a solid state jazz amp there would be a sudden surge in sales of those two items. Not because it 'sounds good' per se but because EJ plays them and therefore 'sounds good'...
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Post by chrissh on Jul 28, 2012 15:03:45 GMT -5
Do you think EJ also enjoyed the prestige effects of Fender's earlier history? Yngwie is the prototype for '80s shred but himself fairly anachronistic, more of a hyper '70s stylist, and he too enjoys Fender's iconography. I wonder if their abilities alone would have helped them build their myths, if they'd only used Steinberger or SynthAxe. At what point does the ball of sonic preferences start rolling, before anyone was famous for using a (brand x)?
As a control, I'd be curious how brand consumption correlates with musicians who came to vernacular musics sideways, say from a more formalized background where there isn't as much awareness of popular emblems. You know how every now and then a band geek or classical kid would take up guitar or synth, and they weren't as burdened by a script of culture's power alignments. Or is that all corrupted once they set foot in Guitar Center?
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Post by Infinite Ego on Jul 28, 2012 16:35:30 GMT -5
Well, a guy like EJ was emulating his heroes, Hendrix, Beck, et al.
Definitely helps to play what the big guys play. And when that co. can then get behind you and project some of that power onto you, well then, you've got it made a little bit more.
Nobody cared a thing for Jazzmasters, etc., until the grunge-indie movement took off. They're just status symbols.
Just remember, there is no such thing as a 'good guitar' per se. As 'good' they are just authority constructs.
A real musician can sound good on just about anything. Everything else comes down to the mysteries of authority.
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Post by aliensporebomb on Jul 29, 2012 0:39:40 GMT -5
Totally true about the same guitar sounding totally different. The orange strat, using stock electronics had a sort of reedy thin sound under overdrive that was really cool for power chords: you can hear it in "before sleeping" there's some 2nd chords I play repeatedly in one spot and it's "thick but thin" at the same time.
But I was never very keen on the single note distorted sounds - it was thin, but also tinny so I'd roll off the volume quite a lot, rarely did I have the volume wide open. But the neck was nice.
I wanted the Rypdal lead sound which had that single coil attack but the notes had a thickness or spaciousness in the single coil sound - the black strat does that a lot better than the orange one did.
Every guitar I own has its strengths and weaknesses - for sheet fat growl the Ibanez does it. For massive sustain and a very particular high end contour it's the Heartfield EX2 - especially with the Cobalt strings. For a vibratory trem-spring filled almost surf sound the Jackson has that but under overdrive it sings with an edge but the neck pickup does what I call "jazz chords with clarity". The strat does the strat thing but not quite as shrill as some I've heard, it's more mellow which I prefer.
Well hell, the best thing would be to fire up the rig and play each guitar clean and dirty the same parts with the same settings (bridge pickup, tone full on, neck pickup) and record the result.
But I guarantee you if I used a different pick, or cable, or aimed it in a different direction the tone even on the same guitar could and probably will change drastically.
So IE is right. "the whole is greater than and different than the sum of its parts".
And if someone else plays the same guitar thru the same rig with the same strap and pick, all bets are off.
Too many variables.
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Post by aliensporebomb on Jul 29, 2012 0:45:30 GMT -5
Do you think EJ also enjoyed the prestige effects of Fender's earlier history? Yngwie is the prototype for '80s shred but himself fairly anachronistic, more of a hyper '70s stylist, and he too enjoys Fender's iconography. I wonder if their abilities alone would have helped them build their myths, if they'd only used Steinberger or SynthAxe. At what point does the ball of sonic preferences start rolling, before anyone was famous for using a ( brand x)? As a control, I'd be curious how brand consumption correlates with musicians who came to vernacular musics sideways, say from a more formalized background where there isn't as much awareness of popular emblems. You know how every now and then a band geek or classical kid would take up guitar or synth, and they weren't as burdened by a script of culture's power alignments. Or is that all corrupted once they set foot in Guitar Center? Good point. One of the guys in my early band played a guitar called a Fender Lead II. It was like a scaled down strat with single coils and he loved that guitar so much he had two of them (one had single coils, the other had dual buckers if I recall). Nobody famous was playing them that I recall and I tried them out and liked the necks but they were so light they were a little scary. And look at me - from very early 1982 to December 1988 I was playing a Roland G-202 synth controller as my main guitar. It was strat-ish shaped but had two humbuckers and BOY did that guitar get some funny looks from guys who were either into "Big G or Big F" as a barometer as to whether it should be played or not. Our other guitarist we were playing with had not one but TWO aluminum neck Kramer guitars which he played from 1984 until 1991 when he got himself an Ibanez Artist (a much better guitar and the neck wouldn't expand and contract with the temperature/humidity). |
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Post by Infinite Ego on Jul 29, 2012 7:13:23 GMT -5
Ah, I had a Lead II as well. It was a cost cutting move on Fender's part. The only reason I got one was because my teacher had one. I traded it pretty quickly.
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Post by aliensporebomb on Jul 29, 2012 11:13:05 GMT -5
That friend moved to Maryland to help work in a recording studio. He's now a guy who builds websites for people and does computer work and owns some custom shop strats. The Lead IIs are long gone I suspect.
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Post by Infinite Ego on Jul 29, 2012 11:14:42 GMT -5
That friend moved to Maryland to help work in a recording studio. He's now a guy who builds websites for people and does computer work and owns some custom shop strats. The Lead IIs are long gone I suspect. They were probably made for two or three years. Just a way to dispose of surplus parts and scrap no doubt at a lower price point. I think mine was from '79. It was a piece of shit, really Oh, I see they have their own WP page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fender_Lead_Series"The original concept for the Lead Guitar series, including the name lead came from Dennis Handa, then Marketing director for Fender Guitars. The idea was to have a guitar that was cheaper than the Stratocaster and be attractive to players because of the neck feel as well as the pickup options. The smaller headstock and the neck were both patterned after earlier Fender necks. Originally Steve Morse of the Dixie Dregs was the first endorser of the guitar and premiered it at a Namm show in Atlanta Georgia. " Lame. Marketing tool comes up with the idea, calls it a "Lead" and burdens the thing with a vintage radius  |
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Post by chromedinette on Jul 29, 2012 14:56:44 GMT -5
Roger Miller from Mission Of Burma has played Lead 1's fairly religiously over the years.
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